#16 – The Only Question is Who's Doing It (AND THE ROCK CRIED OUT, NO HIDING PLACE)

Folks have been conned into thinking they can't change the world, have to accept what is. I'll tell you something, my friends. The world is changing every day. Only question is, who's doing it? Back in the halcyon 1990s, a syndicated sci-fi TV series warned us that it indeed can happen here. In this podcast, we use Babylon 5 to talk through our current political moment in an attempt to process, understand, and perhaps find hope. We're talking about season 3's And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place. Not the penultimate episode of the season, but the penultimate penultimate episode of the season, which I think is a joke I made on this podcast once already. So forgive me. Very possible. Yeah, no, it's very possible. So you were saying you really enjoyed this rewatch? Yeah, this— I don't know, I'd actually rewatched at some point in the last 12 months. But then rewatching it again, it's just, it's a really good episode. It's a really tight episode. It's a great example of Babylon 5 doing the A, B, and C story really well. Yes. On all levels. So you really had like 3 major storylines happening at the same time, and they weave together really well, even when they're not actually like weaving together. Like the Centauri plotline is sort of separate But of course, under the— still from the shadows, but it paces right in really well. You know, the title of the episode, the sort of gospel song, and the Rock Cried Out in a Hiding Place is happening on the station while, you know, the Narn scene is happening. I thought that was so cool. As a kid, I didn't completely understand the meaning of what that song meant. I thought it was more just like, oh, this is, you know, more of an upbeat gospel song to bring everybody's spirits up. And, you know, of course the episode was titled that, but it didn't quite all click for what I was thinking. And there it is. But yeah, just a good episode and the emotional beats of the relationships. I think that was the key part for me was it really spoke, spoke to that, which I was really thinking to myself that it's funny how JMS doesn't think like he's— I always got from his autobiography and other posts, like he doesn't think that he's like the best judge of relationships and, you know, giving advice, but he sure as hell knows how to write a lot of aspects of them in really, really profoundly good ways, you know. And I think we discussed this before with, you know, uh, Sheridan's father and the idea of fathers in this and how that was obviously the opposite of his experience when you read the autobiography, but somehow he really connected with the ideal. and is really able to write that in a convincing, healthy way. But yeah, fun episode all around and really good for the Shadow War storyline. You know, it's— the episode starts off with, you know, T-minus 14 days. And I do remember as a kid watching that and being like, what? What does that mean? Like, what's coming? What's gonna happen? And it really built the tension because you knew something big was coming. Yeah, that is really one of those things about Babylon 5 that was really exciting at the time because it was really underscoring the idea that this is an ongoing storyline. That little thing at the beginning, you don't know what it means and it has to do with something that won't pay off for another 2 weeks, right? It's just there because this is a part of a bigger thing. Right. That sense that this is a larger story. You really do get that sense of things intersecting. And I think about JMS's description or conception of Babylon 5, the space station, and the story as like this hub. It's like a crossroads. It's the intersection of all sorts of cultures and concerns. It all sort of lines up here. You really get that sense from this episode, as you were just speaking about. And there was one shot that really underscored that feeling for me in a visual sense. The introduction of the minister and the rabbi and the monk, sort of the religious figures, when they arrive at— what do you call that area? It's like the reception area, the waiting room, the lounge. What is that? Yeah, it's after the docking bay. It's the— It's like the terminal in an airport is what it's sort of like. Yeah, you're right. And it's the same set every time, you know, and they're coming down the plank, you know, getting their ID card scanned. Right, exactly. It's sort of like customs or something, maybe. Yeah, yeah, that's sort of— and it is customs. That makes sense. They're going through customs. So they arrive and they have their scene, and then their scene ends and they walk off, and then the camera turns left and Lord Rifa walks in, and it's sort of like, oh yes, that story is happening too. So it like really is that writ small of like, you know, you have like a representative of every major religious group of Earth are showing up, and we know the reason they're there is because they're sort of smuggling in information on behalf of the resistance. And then on the other hand, you have this scheming Shakespearean political drama unfolding with the Centauri right next door, and it's all happening right here. This really is one of those episodes where you get a sense of the size and the scale and the scope of the larger story, which is ironic because I think this episode is like a cheapie. I think it's like a bottle episode. Yeah, like Jakar goes to Narn at the end. You look at that scene, it's one location, one shot from one angle where he's looking out the window. You don't see what's outside. This is fascinating because My, my visual experience rewatching it a couple days ago was completely different. I was looking out, it was the Blu-rays, you know, so it's like it's the best we can get right now for that. And I was like, oh wow, Narnia's actually like— it's still basic, it was always basic what they did with, with planets. Yeah, Minbari homeworld, they were— they, they took one theme and they sort of ran with it. But I was looking at that and being like oh, I can actually see the detail in this. Like, that's the building of the Khari, and that was bombed out. The way the sun is, is, is coming through the dust, I was actually thinking of, this is really impressive for relatively early CGI, not relying on matte paintings, which at that point probably could have done a— maybe, you know, it was assumed a better job. I was really impressed by that. The sets themselves were, were sort of the typical fair, and there wasn't obviously any major space combat or anything in it. It was a couple space shots of Babylon 5. They didn't show any of the ships moving to or from Narn or Babylon 5 after that. You of course get the big reveal at the end, the, the part that watching this episode as a kid was the, oh my God, this is so cool! And that is the, the, the revealing of the White Star Fleet. And they do a little bit, and they— you do get to see them. And then there's sort of a, a more static shot at the end of them. So like, I, of course, that, that always stood out to me and I, I had forgotten it was this episode. I always remembered like, oh, it's in the latter part of season 3 that you get the White Star Fleet. I thought it was earlier for some reason. But I, I actually thought that the, the like artistic design behind Narn was really convincing. And maybe you're right, they certainly knew how to do it on a budget because there's Dracarys, you know, covering his face and they had, they had dust coming in that window. Like it was actual dust you could see. You know, and you really realize like, oh, this is a, you know, this was a planet that was truly bombed out with mass drivers. I mean, high-impact asteroid-like hits, and this was the world that they were in. So, but isn't that funny how we both had sort of different, um, but I see since there weren't action shots, there weren't that many, there weren't any new sets, there weren't complicated shots. So maybe I should clarify. And actually hearing what you just said, I think underscores how effective the episode is. Because yeah, there are a couple new shots of Narm, but they're far away establishing shots. So in other words, what they're actually shooting is that one room set that I don't even think has a third wall where they're looking out the window. And when I say you don't see what's out the window, I mean, from Jakar's perspective, from inside the room, it's like you don't. see what's outside the window. We saw what's outside the window from the establishing shot. Right, right. So in our mind, that's what's out there. But if you actually look at how they shot it, it's very straightforward, it's very economical. And then where they spent a little money was creating those new CGI shots that had to look right, but they weren't large dynamic sequences that had to move around and create a story and mix live action and the CG. Right. So, so in that sense, it's like very straightforward. And, and, and all the sets were pretty inexpensive. It's funny that you mentioned this is not where I intended to start, which is really funny because it was thought on the rewatch when they did on Narn, the, you know, they were making the Imperial chamber throne room for Cartagia to visit. And I, I was watching it thinking to myself, literally like, wow, they really, they really relied on like, because the characters like how fancy this is, the palace, this is a recreation of the palace. And I'm like, you're literally just hanging up a bunch of curtains. And I realized that was the cheap way to like make it seem fancy, but not have to like, they had some columns, you know, they were like, okay, so they probably like put some work into the columns and then relied on the curtains. And then everything else was just the characters. being like, isn't this great what we're creating? And you just sort of buy into that. Whereas it's actually a very inexpensive— I don't wanna say cheap to lessen it, but a very inexpensive set to be able to pull that off. And obviously there's more detail when we get into season 4 and those sets and that scenery is reused. But yeah, it didn't— the episode didn't rely— this isn't like, you know, Severed Dreams, which is both a great episode and, you know, award-winning. Yeah. CG space battle effects and everything else. This, this relies more on that. I will say the appearance of holographic Londo, very well done. I don't actually know how they did it, but it was very convincing where he's like walking around from the projection, but also it's slightly wrong as it should be because he wouldn't know the position of people with that. So he's sort of looking at a, at an angle askew and other things. I was like, well, that's That was neat and convincing and exactly how I would expect a prerecorded holographic message to operate. But yeah, just again, like kudos to the producers of this show. The, the, the, the teams that put this show together managed to do that. And then you end up with, you know, something that not only visually is convincing, but then you get into what this episode is about. And this, this episode really, you know, just to go next onto where our show focuses before going on to the rest is the on-station plotline with Sheridan, Ivanova, and the— these religious figures. And you have Brother Theo there who's already been established. Really cool, interesting character. I love, I love the idea of Ivanova starting the episode off with her log narration because she's seeing it from the perspective of not being the captain but being close. But she's really the COO. She's watching all the operations, is in charge of all the operations. Sheridan is in an obsessive loop trying to figure out what the Shadows are up to. And again, on Blu-ray When you see Sheridan in this and you look at him, he looks rough. Like the unshaven— they told— they must have told Bruce Boxner, don't shave, we're gonna make you up. They added— and if you look closely, they add some like jowliness to him that's not there later in the episode. I took very specific note of that. They wanted him to look rough, and you get to see that on the Blu-ray a little bit more. And she's narrating this and sort of like— and, and it's talking about how like what a you know, a calming and great influence Brother Theo and the monks are, but also how annoying he can be. And I love, again, the dichotomy of that, which is again very JMS to sort of portray a figure like that. And then immediately when, when they're in customs greeting the other religious figures, the rivalry, I thought it was hilarious. Brother Theo— I love the banter between Theo and, yeah, I forget the minister's name. And I thought it was so effective. Like, it's not the comedy. in Babylon 5 is kind of hit or miss for me. Um, but this is exactly right. Yep. You know, it's funny, you mentioned before you realized how JMS seems to regard himself as sort of an outsider, or he's very awkward. I wrote something very similar in my notes. The anecdote the Minister shares with Sheridan in that scene at night when he walks into his office. My number one note for this episode. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So I want to hear what he said. Yeah. The anecdote he shares to kind of make the point about sharing the responsibility with someone. And then he talks about how, you know, his wife, before they were married, she used to come over to help him clean his apartment. And her apartment was also a mess. And she said, well, when I sweep my floor, I just sweep my floor. But when I help you sweep your floor, I'm helping you. Right. It, it feels like an anecdote or like a proverb or whatever. No, it's not a proverb. It's a parable. It sounds like a parable almost. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Coming from a reverend, you know, Will Dexter is the— Right. And it feels like something that preexists, but I've never heard that anywhere else. I'm pretty sure it's just something from JMS's brain, and it is so insightful And really does demonstrate an understanding of human nature in those intimate moments. So I made an observation, same as you. It's so funny how self-effacing and self-deprecating JMS is about his social skills or his uncomfortableness in relationships, romantic or otherwise. You know, like he can fake it. He can fake it on the page, it seems like to me. So, Mm-hmm. I mean, that's something real. So yeah, I think it's funny how you noticed that as well. Yeah, and, and it's funny because, you know, and again I'm thinking, okay, well, you know, the religious figures smuggling the data out, the long conversation about, uh, the resistance on Earth, President Clark, and there's— and that's like, that's obviously the most topical part for us. And yet the part that hit me most on the rewatch was this little moment, which was, was a moment that I, I recall seeing before And I recall in my previous rewatch thinking that was cute. I don't know why it hit me hard this time, that idea of, of taking everything on oneself and then believing at the same time, believing that to— that it has to be just you, that everybody else has enough on their plate that you cannot burden them with it. And I think that's actually really relevant for culture today in this moment. You see a lot of therapy language making its way into TikTok speech. I don't really do TikTok because I find that infuriating, but like, I know from what I do see with that and interactions with people and everybody, there's been this recent sort of idea of, oh, you have to check with somebody before you quote unquote trauma dump. Because obviously, there are always people who are very difficult to deal with just by nature and tend to make their drama yours. We all know people like that. But that's not the problem with human interaction. That's an extreme. This sort of view that started spreading through pop culture, pop psychology was that, no, all those people who were sharing their woes with you or sharing their difficulties or their pains or just their burdens, nope, that's trauma dumping and that's a violation of boundaries. Another pop therapy word that's come into use. And so, you would come across articles and videos of people talking about, yep, you can't, you don't do that unless you've gotten permission ahead of time. And I'm thinking, what could be less human than that? And what I think would destroy the intimacy of relationships and friendships quicker than that? And I can speak a little bit personally from my experience. I had an experience with somebody who started really buying into that. And And I was the second person in their life that they cut out despite having a very close relationship and sharing a lot back and forth. It just seemed all of a sudden they bought into this idea that you got to cut everybody out, but also believed that it should go unidirectional from them. And I said, okay, well, that's where the problem goes in. And it's a warping of this very notion that Sheridan has internalized that, no, I have to be not only the— it becomes a little bit grandiose narcissistic in one sense. They're just like, I have to be the one to handle the problems, but also the strange guilt about sharing with somebody else because you perceive that everybody else— in his case, specifically Delenn— Delenn has a lot going on. And then, and, and the Reverend right there has that story because he's like, yeah, we all have a dirty house, is what he's saying. We all have these problems, and it is fundamental to human nature That when you share your problem with somebody, and, and very often is what he was telling that story, is that when even when you have your problems, you go off to help somebody else, somehow your problems don't seem as, as, as painful or as overwhelming as they were before. That's built into us. That's— I think that's really an indicator of healthy relationships. And yeah, you see Sheridan sort of, you know, You know, go, okay. You know, as he turns off the light and and then you know and realizes, yeah, when Delenn is reaching out to him, that's not something to simply shoo away. It's not something to say no, no, no, no. Just I have to do it on my own. And then she being Delenn, and Delenn was classic Delenn in this episode. You know, saying, oh, you're cranky. But then I looked the word up, and that's. Grouchy and crotchety, and I realize your language is crazy because it's just one word that references another. How does anyone ever know what anything means? And she drags him to you know this that's sort of a gospel-like event. You know where you then she portrays like she doesn't know what she's doing reading the song. She's like, "Why did my I don't understand any of this." It's very funny, but she was like, "Yep, I'm gonna drag you there." She does the the cute fake Dylan patronizing when Sheridan's like, "No, but there's a shadow war on. I have to do this." She's like, "Yes, John. Yes, there is. We know there is, but you're coming." And with me, it was, it was, yes, it was, it was Dylan being utterly relentless. And Sheridan and Dylan are that metaphorical immovable object meets an unstoppable force. You know, they are that, but they learn how to, how to really work with each other. And you can tell he's, he then is just gonna be like, all right, well, I can't, I can't really fight this. And it, it helps him as a result. And I'm like, yep, that's a healthy relationship right there. That's what a healthy relationship is. All about how cool is that. And yes, if you're going to have 2 people who are, are the essentially the figureheads of having to like lead the Shadow War, they need to be able to rely on each other. They need to have these advanced coping mechanisms to handle that kind of burden, uh, and not completely burn out. So in one sense, this episode is sort of about how do you, how do you navigate the hardest things you can imagine and then realizing that you can In part, it's about sharing the burden, and in part, it's leaving room for other people to help you out, whether it's to sweep your floor or to get you out of the war room, you know, something like that. And maybe that's the most profound message from this episode, even though I think as a viewer and as a kid, that didn't jump out at me as the most important thing. It does, um, it certainly does later in life, and it's just another one of those building blocks of this relationship of Sheridan and Delenn, which is why I think it's so convincing by the time you get to Sleeping in Light and Delenn's both grief, but also that sort of contentment she has because she knows, you know, the confidence she had in that relationship after Sheridan is taken early. You know, it's such a— this is why JMS wrote that. He didn't wanna just have characters that were, we were told they cared about each other. We were told that they loved each other. This was the characters demonstrating that, and which is, which is directly part of the setup of Z minus 14 days. Because with this— Right. Furthering their relationship and us being along for that ride, the return of Anna Sheridan, the Sheridan leaving to go to Zahadoum, you know, and it seemingly being that he's almost chosen Anna in a sense, but also that, you know, what happens to you know, not only what happens to the relationship, but what if he— what if he dies there? You know, which is why I think it's even more potent when he comes back from Zahadum, you know, after having died. By the way, quick, quick thing, Wayne Alexander, who is Loridan, he's in this episode as an Aran. Yeah. It's very— because I heard the voice, I'm like, wait, is that— at first I actually thought it was somebody else. I thought it was Garak from Deep Space Nine, and I realized it I was like, Andrew Robinson. Andrew Robinson, who— quick side note because it's all in the same universe— reading the audiobook of the book he, he wrote. Oh, uh, yeah, it's called A Stitch in Time. It's really fun. So if you're looking for more Deep Space Nine and, and similar vibes, you can go for that. But yeah, it was funny to see him in this. So they're sort of like building that up. And then Rabbi Leo Myers is played by Eric Avari, who you will also see commonly in Stargate SG-1. He was like the sci-fi character actor that you would see oftentimes playing like an indigenous role of some sort, and the elder of that group of people. You'd always kind of come across him in all the different sci-fi shows. But yeah, it was just such a— for that to be the standout today when we have the Centauri/Narn storyline, which is huge in this episode. Yeah. When you have the what we get from their meeting. And I thought it was really interesting the way he set this up, like, okay, they're coming here because as religious figures they were able to sort of, you know, get past some of the restrictions that Earth would have and get to Babylon 5. And, and I think to myself, well, that, that makes a lot of sense because especially when you're facing authoritarians, there is overlap. And this is not an accusation per se against religion, but there's often an overlap between religious institutions backing authoritarian regimes. And as a result, there's actually some wiggle room. And we see this in a lot of historical spy stories where it is religious figures who can pass through unseen as a result, because they're seen sort of by default as being part of the power structure, part of the good sort of, you know, support the leader infrastructure. And they were able to sneak this information out, in this case, in a Bible. And here are the data crystals. with all kinds of updates for what was happening on Earth. And Babylon 5 had been stranded from all that information for so long that it was also a huge relief to the crew to realize there is an active resistance on Earth. The other thing about that, like, clergy and religious institutions, yes, they quite often uphold the status quo and are a part of the power structure, but they also have an authority that occupies a slightly separate domain that can compete with governmental power and authority. It's the, uh, their domain is sort of the spiritual domain, which depending on your society, you have to allow them a certain amount of self— I guess self-autonomy is redundant. But like, you know, for example, not exactly the same thing, but how the Catholic Church right now and the Pope can be critical of the current administration and certain things that are happening in the world. And like, you know, can't really say shit about it. Yeah. Trump, Trump has tried. You have Vance, a recent Catholic convert. I find that so fascinating. It is. And he may be allied with certain more fringe elements within that religion. I mean, there actually is a recent schism within the Catholic Church amongst a small splinter group. But you see that and it makes it— you're right, it makes it harder. They don't have the same— they can't use the same tools they would use in politics. When a Democrat or a liberal says something, they can use every weapon at their disposal to fight back and say like, yeah, well, this person's just another Democrat. What the hell do they have to say? And you can ridicule and do all the typical Trump tactics. It's much harder. It's not to say Trump hasn't ridiculed the Pope. It's that it doesn't stick to nearly the extent it does when going after another political figure or another business— Because that spiritual realm, however you want to define it, is hard for authoritarian regimes to fully sublimate. Yep. The minister's first name is Will. He also says something at the very end of that scene where he gives over the data crystals that also struck me. He said, I'd rather do something and make a mistake than be frightened into doing nothing. That's the problem today back home. Everyone's afraid to do anything to change the world, but the world's changing every day. The only question is who's doing it, right? Yes. Yes. I would, I would say even revolutionary change. Religion is strange and it's a contradiction, which again, he's spoken about the nature of contradiction, is that it can be a very conservative force to maintain the status quo. and it can be utterly revolutionary in another. When you look at, you know, Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement, for him it was largely religious-based. Abolition 100 years before was seen as a religious thing, and yet religion was simultaneously used to maintain the status quo of slavery in the 19th century. So it can be both, and it is manifested in so many interesting ways as both. So here you have this reverend with a rabbi, with a Buddhist, and with a Muslim. And obviously they really only had him as the speaking character. The others had a couple, you know, a line or two or something like that. But he was, you know, there's only so much in 44 minutes. So he was the face of religion for us. And he comes up and he says something that his speech before the revival, I guess that's what it really was, you know, the revival event that he hosted was, every day here and at home, we are warned about the enemy. But who is the enemy? Is it the alien? Well, we are all alien to one another. Is it the one who believes differently than we do? And he goes, no, my friends, the enemy is fear. And he uses that sort of— it is very, uh, a specific language and enunciation that's classic in the churches. Say the enemy is ignorance. The enemy is the one who tells you that you must hate that which is different. And it sort of concludes, because in the end, that hate will turn on you and that same hate will destroy you. It's not to say that there aren't so many other religious leaders now on the fictional Earth Alliance homeworld, you know, literally espousing through religion that you must not be alien, you must be the same as everybody else, you have to, you know. But there's always that contradiction and different figures in that, and it's hard to, to, you know, look at this character and what he's saying and say, no, he's just completely wrong. Of course it is, because today it is the alien is the immigrant in our world right now. And, and that is where all this fear is being ginned up, that the, the alien is the illegal alien, the, the enemy immigrant who must— who is causing our societal downfall, and all these things that people will say. It's the same thing that this guy is speaking against. It's aliens from other civilizations in this case, but we're dealing with— it's the same mentality we're seeing now. And that the more you hate, the more you get that, the more you, you buy into that, you know, I can villainize this group, all of our problems we foisted on them. And you hate this group of people, it will turn against you. You look at how quickly Trump turns on his own people. His own supporters, you will end up in that no longer friendly fire. He will betray anybody and everybody if he decides to do it. There's no law, you know, and and that and that's sort of the nature of hate. And I think that's another commonality of authoritarians is you can think you're in their good graces one moment. You can be espousing everything they say, and whether it's a misstep, a misperception, or a maneuver against you by a smart Centauri, a manipulative figure, you will be out and you'll lose your head. Like, so when you buy into that entire system, now, you know, that sort of hits it right on the head. Like, that speech from the Reverend is so applicable to today. It was applicable in the '90s, but we didn't feel like it was as, you know, it was more generalized at that point. And in the show, it was clearly Earth and the aliens. But it feels so terribly relevant now. But on the Babylon 5 level, it also goes a level further, or I should say a little bit further in distance. It's warning us, and it's warning the Narn and the Centauri, because where this episode ends with the Narn taking vengeance, and, and you're watching the show like, no, it's rightful. I mean, they're right, they, they are getting the figure who organized the bombing of— But G'Kar walks away at the end. He doesn't participate. And even though he orchestrates it, he walks away. And this is sort of another step on his journey. He knows that that hatred in the end does devour oneself, and he says as much in Jakar words in the 4th and the 5th seasons. But this was a scene that is just, you know, you can look back and say, yep, here we have this character saying this and warning us of that hatred. And then you have the you know, sort of righteous violence of the Narn. But it's a warning at the same time, saying, yes, and that is why the Vorlon warned us that the Narn and the Centauri are both dying species. And, and JMS sort of refers to that in the million-year-off future. Do they make it to that level? And the answer is they, they really don't, you know, unless they're going to get past that. And I think that's the warning we need to heed today. Obviously, it's a warning for those who follow the authoritarians, but it's also a warning for the resistance that if you're going to exclusively follow the Narn path of resistance, you're not likely to end up in a good place because the first round of Narn resistance we saw manifest ultimately in season 1 where the Narn were ascendant. And that triggered another cycle when Londo got the power from the shadows and that inverts sort of again in season 5. when the Centauri are bombed by the Alliance with Narn ships. And that cycle continues and continues, continues. So the warning here is that will turn on you. It will turn on you. You need to figure out a different mechanism. And there's always, there's always something. There's always— I don't think JMS wastes his words in this show. I don't think anything is just good filler or feel-good or sounds right. language. I always think that it, it weaves in with what he's thinking about the bigger picture. You know, there's a scene near the beginning where Rifa is meeting with Minister Verini or whatever his name is. Minister Verini, yeah. Minister Verini is expressing some, some incredulity at the idea that Londo is not dependable or there's something wrong with him. And Rifa says he's spent too much time among aliens. And he's forgotten what it means to be Centauri. So the exact same rhetoric, the exact same othering that Will the Minister is warning against, and that we are seeing happening right now in our real world. You made me realize as well, when I was a kid, I also didn't necessarily understand the significance of the song and the intercutting at the end. But what I'm realizing is that That's sort of foreshadowing it. The idea that what those human religious figures are saying is actually directly applicable to what's happening with the Centauri. Yep. When we decided to do this episode, my first thought about how it applies to our real world now is the whole Londo versus Rifa sort of internecine fighting and the eating of their own kind of reminds me a little of what's happening in some sectors of the MAGA world where there are divisions forming and also some outright rivalries. And it's funny, you know, when you have a political project or social project that is predicated on like hate and exclusion and fear of the other, those values, as it were, are not cultivated in isolation. It's, it's funny when, when you say that, I keep on thinking back to obviously what a lot of this space— and when you think of the Third Reich and the rivalries and the backstabbing amongst the German leadership. And so that, much like what we have now, also factored in a cult of personality. Now when that personality goes away. And in this case, it will go away at some point. Every human being dies. The older you are, the closer to that you are. And, you know, there's an 81-year-old, right, year-old president, and that means that at some point he's out of the picture of, you know, from the natural progression of life. And what happens to everybody else? Does nobody else quite have the secret sauce that he has or has the cult of personality? Sometimes you do, have one follow the other. You have one sort of, you know, figure and then another very strong cult personality figure, but it's not often. And right now there's nobody waiting in the wings that appears to be that strong, not to mention he tends to slap down anybody who would be a rival. So once that sort of linchpin is gone, what you're left with is people who are going to ravenously go after each other. And it's gonna be— Right. You know, it's gonna put the Centauri to shame in some ways. You know, it's gonna be, you know, one house of politicians against another house of politicians, whatever family you wanna call it. You know, it's gonna be groups of people wanting to ascend to the top themselves and in very many ways devour each other in the process. That's the history of politics and the history of vying for power. And it's sort of why many societies end up with a very chaotic period after a a very strong, you know, individual leadership figure goes away. Whether they are loved or revolted, once they're gone, you get chaos. That's why it's better not to have to rely on that mechanism, and why I'm a big believer in democracy and the rule of law and people actually being civil. So, you know, do we, do we end up more like the, the Centauri in this episode where it is You know, even Londo, who is— he's fighting for his position in this episode. He's not fighting for an ideal. Yes, he's, he's more fighting for vengeance because he's been led to believe by the— by Mr. Morden that it was Lord Rifa who killed his wife, when in fact it was— Yeah, but even then, I think that's why he says, I have to do more than just kill you. And just kill you. Yeah, right. No, this is true Vengeance. This is that eye for an eye, Old Testament. Yeah, but he would have to, without that personal motivation, he would end up having to get rid of him no matter what. It's, it's just that without that personal motivation, the personal animus, I think he'd be a little more clinical about it. Yes. And would it have been being torn apart by a mob of angry Norn? Would it have been, as you said, like, oh, I could have poisoned you at any time? You know, and he had access to some pretty— and of course he had bluffed him about the other poison, which is one way he got, you know, Rifa to sort of back down at an earlier point in the show. It's really interesting because, because in that hologram of him, he's trying to sort of like imply, well, he's a much better person. He, he did not plan the bombing of Narn. He didn't do all these things. Now we know what Londo has done. horrific things. While he himself did not plan or approve of the mass drivers being used against the Norn homeworld, he created everything in this scenario. He repeatedly used the Shadows, and then in vengeance after vengeance and anger after anger was going after them and deliberately creating this. What pissed him off, which is an allegory to the Iran War today, is that Rifa was spreading the Centauri thin with all these wars of conquest. So Londo is sort of like what Trump was originally. No more wars, no more this. We have to take care of our own people, secure our borders, and become great, blah blah blah. The return of the Centauri to the greatness of their republic. You know, it's literally the same thing. It's instead of, instead of MAGA, it's— I think there's no way to do it. Sorry. Make Centauri Prime. MCPDA, however that would be pronounced. Um, so he sees everybody going off and he says, well, this is going to weaken us. And it is weakening the Centauri because it's exactly what the Shadows wanted. And we're in that same situation. This, this completely— I had that same thought. Unnecessary war. Unnecessary on every level. But even in— and, and just as bad in addition to the horrific toll of life, is that it doesn't accomplish even a fraction of the goal except to do— except to put us in an even worse status quo. Right, exactly. It actually does the opposite. No one was fighting over the Strait of Hormuz before this. There were rumblings of threats every couple decades, whatever. Now we actually— even what are we going to negotiate out of that? It's not the wisdom of enlightenment that Londo is doing there. It's that his self-interest and pride in the Centauri— he's seeing Rifa as a threat to the security of Centauri Prime. Right. The same way that right now a lot of Republicans are turning against this Iran war, not because they have any moral qualms about the loss of life, which they should, but they don't. It's that it's weakening the US and is weakening our economy. And that's why I see that, you know, where Londo is at this point is very far from his own redemption and, and any redemption arc. Yes. And I think that's why towards the end of the episode, when Vere is not only rightfully angry that he was used and put in danger and lied to, but that when he says, I don't even know you anymore, he's not just saying that because of, of the intrigue or espionage. That's actually— that's Centauri playbook, you know, stuff. It's the why, the how, and, and all that stuff behind it. This wasn't for a good reason. This was purely for his own advancement. So it wasn't like there was some higher ideal at stake here. This was for all the worst reasons. And he's like, so you're gonna endanger my life for that shit? You know? And he, he wanted more. He expected more of Londo. And that's sort of a heartbreaking thing to see because Vir is always meant to be that sort of the conscience of, of the court there for Londo. And— Yeah, which he uses knowingly as part of the manipulation. Ironically, not just the way that he said. But it was really to fool Rifa. Yep. Yep. The final 2 thoughts I have about this episode before I've said everything I want to say. I love the construction of this episode. It is like such a well-executed TV plot. It's really a masterclass of withholding information, misdirecting the audience. So in the beginning, Londo says what his plan is, and it seems Very plausible. It seems believable. I mean, no reason not to think that that is exactly what he's doing. And then there's a complication when Rifa abducts Vir, and then you're like, the whole thing is in jeopardy and it's gonna fall apart. That also feels like a legitimate complication, and that is really what's happening. And it's not until the end when you discover, no, that's exactly what Londo's plan was the whole time. Yeah. And it's a very satisfying construction of that whole plotline. It's just like, mm, it's like, it's chef's kiss. It's so, it's so well executed and it's so satisfying, not just for Londo, but also for the audience at the end because it makes perfect— it works perfectly. And never were you wondering what else was really happening. You accept it and you go with it. You never questioned for a second that what it looks like is happening is what's really happening. And it's just so great. It's so satisfying. How in one episode, Jamies successfully wove together an intrigue spy plot, like a convincing, fun, well-thought-out, as you said, to its conclusion, combined with the intrigue, but the relief of like, oh, there's a resistance on Earth. Let's find out more about that. But then use that same part of the story to speak about relationships, burdens, and, and working through that. And then using that very mechanism for a cool reveal at the end with, oh, by the way, this is what we've been working night and day for. You have resources, you aren't alone, and there's the White Star Fleet, you know. And, and then from there they kiss, like, because that in the story, it's all intertwined. And as a kid, as a kid, I'm like, why do they have to be kissing? You know, you're like, yeah, a teenager, what the hell is this? Like, they should be— and now I understand. I understand that, and I understand what they were trying to do with it. I mean, I, I sort of gotten used to the idea of Captain Kirk and Captain Picard, you know, very solitary figures who took on their burdens and were the heroes. This is the opposite. And Sisko of the, obviously, the sort of, you know, contemporaneous show in Deep Space Nine, he's more so grieving his wife and has, you know, occasionally, you know, has aspects of a new relationship. But this is like, well, what, what is it for people in the thick of these grand and difficult circumstances to actually be forming relationships, to have support, from somebody and to be going through the crucible together. This show is so much about that. It's about, we go through it together and sometimes, sadly, sometimes we don't. And those characters often suffer the most. I mean, Londo sort of, that's why he's alone in the end. That's why he's a narrator from that position. You know, his decisions had isolated him completely. But even at the very end with Sleeping in Light, you see Ivanova having, you know, opened up to a new role and new connections with the Rangers. Delenn, you know, having lived the most that she could with Sheridan and still waking up every morning for the sunrise for the rest of her long life. Like, all these things are about the relationships that continue. Even Garibaldi has finally found a companion and peace and everything else. And I don't think the show is about like, you have to find a partner though. I, you know, because I wrestle with that, you know, that idea, but, you know, in life, like we all do, like, do you find that partner? But Jameis likes to explore that because he'd had successful and very unsuccessful relationships as well and gets to write about them. If anything, great, great writing is about exploring oftentimes what you yourself can't have, or have— or not can't have, but didn't have, or messed up. So that's, that's this episode for me on, on so many levels. And what I thought was originally an episode about vengeance is, is so much more complex than that, and so much more than that, so much better than that. And I didn't always understand the choice of the title because in some way it's that you can't run from what you did. You know, you can't, you can't hide yourself. And in this case, it's very visceral and clear. Okay, well, Lord Rifa can't run from having orchestrated the bombing of Narn, but it's saying Londo's not going to be able to run away from what he's done. Right. No one is going to be able to. And that accountability— and then, but what if you do reach out? What if you, what if you share that burden? What if you turn from what you were before. And then it gives you some hope. And, and then of course that hope comes from that meeting with— not only is there resistance on Earth, that it's actually quite alive, but that there's skepticism towards Clark's rule. Like, that's a real, real thing. And, and that's exactly what our characters here needed to hear. Because they had been isolated from Babylon 5. You know, they, they knew that they were being portrayed as, said, the pirates and the, and the bad guys. And this was, well, not everybody. And there's some hope, and we have forces on the ground. Of course, that's also helping set up the events in season 4, which we've done episodes about here, and how Sheridan is able to work with the resistance to not only get back to Earth, but to minimize the damage. You know, to, to, to do it in a way that wasn't just another conqueror, you know, which, which, which is the very thing that you see in the Naarn-Sentauri back and forth constantly. So yeah, a great, a great episode, this one, again, in what is otherwise a super strong season. Like, I, I think in many ways the 3rd season might be the strongest season of the entire show. I agree. It, it just is so good on so many levels that it's like, how do you live up to that in any point, in any show? that again, this is just another really good one. Now, yes, okay, Gray 17 Is Missing is not far off, far behind this episode in the season, but I can't wait until we cover that. I know, I always forgive that episode because it's sort of like an exhale. And back in the day of television when you had 22 to 26 episodes in a season, as a viewer you almost need the exhales, or you need the bad episodes as a comparison point for the good episodes. When we're stuck with 8 episodes a season, you gotta knock them all out. I think I've said this on this podcast before. I know I've said it other places, but I genuinely miss when TV shows were allowed to have a bad episode. Yeah, yeah. You know, no, we've had that discussion. So, you know, how would we be able to go over how good these episodes are without like— yeah, those other episodes. By the way, The Grey 17 is missing— the B-plot is actually really amazing and solid. It's when Delenn becomes Ranger One. Yep, yep. Um, my very last thought, which is good because it's a bit disconnected from everything else that we said, it's a little thing, but again, in that scene in the office in the middle of the night, the minister is making the case for why Sheridan has to share the burden or whatever, and Sheridan's sort of conceding the point, and then he's like, so what now? I suppose you want me to turn it over to God, right? And that just struck me a little in this context because, I mean, why is he so dismissive? He's got like Vorlons and Shadows. He had a Vorlon living inside him. He like, they've encountered First Ones, he's traveled in time. Sinclair, his predecessor, is transformed into the like foundational religious leader of all of Minbari society in a predestination paradox. I'm like, I get if religion's not your thing, but it's like so compartmentalized. Like, how can you dismiss that? I think that's where you get a little bit of, you get a little bit of the JMS like punching himself, like coming, punching through the story a little bit there. Because it would be. Like, because he always says like how much he likes writing about religion, even though he has no belief in it. And, and again, the, the Reverend was unflappable, you know, that wasn't what he was saying. Well, to be real about it for a second, like my interpretation is like, it's not that he's dismissive of the idea. It's that he's dismissive of what in his world is probably the limited Christian conception of what the God that they are talking about actually is. And the practice and theology around it is what he's probably dismissive of. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that line just sort of like hit me a little funny on this watch. I was like, wait, what? Anyway, I think that's all I've got. Should we wrap it up here? I think we can wrap it up. I think we had a good time with this one. All right, we are Last Best Hope B5 across all social media that we're on. Please write us at lastbesthopeb5@gmail.com with feedback or suggestions for what episodes we should cover next. I want to apologize for the erratic schedule that we have. It's just a fact of our lives, and there's not really a way to do it more consistently or more frequently, but it's either that or do no podcast at all. And so thanks for bearing with us. And, uh, as always, we want to leave you with the idea that sometimes peace is just another word for surrender.